A Biotechnologist and Chemical Engineer Discusses COVID-19

Matthew talks with Dr Maria King.  She is a professor at Texas A&M and has her PhD in Chemistry and Biotechnology and is a Chemical Engineer.  She discusses topics such as the difference between droplet versus aerosol spread of viruses such as the coronavirus, the effect of ventilation systems on spread, and a device she has patented that can actually sample viruses from the air and identify them. 

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Check back often for more episodes pertaining to health and wellness and issues concerning the COVID-19 pandemic.

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Transcript

spk_0:   0:05
Hello and welcome to the going viral podcast. I'm Matthew's ender, a certified registered nurse anaesthetist. I'm in Advanced Practice Nurse that specializes in the practice of anesthesia. Scope of this podcast will explore health and wellness from the broad to the specific. My aim is to educate while offering a unique perspective. Thank you for joining me today and let's get right to the show. So today I talked to Dr Maria King, who is Ah, a professor at Texas A and M. She has her PhD in chemistry and biotechnology, and she's essentially a chemical engineer. Ah, and also an arrow biologist. So I thought it would be interesting to go over things with her. Like the concept of droplets spread of the Corona virus as opposed to aerosol spread different concepts like that. She also discusses a device that she has a patent on with Texas A and M and north of Groman that can sample particles and analyze them right from the air like viruses. So essentially, she has this device that you can put in the middle of a room and analyze the air in that room and tell you if there is a virus in the air. So obviously that is timely for what we're going through right now. So we talk a bit about that. It's called a viable bio aerosol collector a V back so you will hear her talk about that as well. Now Dr King is from Austria, and she has a rather thick accent. So I am hoping that the sound quality does translate well for you listeners to understand what she's saying, because it is very, very interesting to hear her talk about these subjects. Also, please. As usual, stay tuned for some future episodes again. I will be talking to some providers on the front lines of this cove, it 19 battle, and they will be talking about being on airway teams and what it is like to be on the front lines in different regions of the United States. I'm also planning some future episodes to go over topics like preparedness and how we can prepare for the next crisis, whether it be natural or manmade disasters or possibly another pandemic. Plus, I'm working on topics like financial planning in this type of a situation, and also, of course I'm going to be talking to a couple stress management experts. So lots of content coming up s so please stay tuned. So without further delay here is Dr Maria King. Okay, So, uh, thank you very much for joining me today, Maria, I really appreciate your time. And as I kind of start all of these, if you could just give me a little bit of information on your background and then we can just kind of, ah discuss things from there.

spk_1:   3:05
Well, thank you for having me, Matt. So my background these I started as a chemical engineering student at the University of Technology in Budapest. And then I ended as a biological engineer, too. Did my PhD in chemistry and biotechnology in Germany. And I join in Texas A. And then, in 2002 in 275 I came over to the Aero So Technology laboratory at mechanical engineering. But Dr Macfarlane needed a person with biology and engineering background toe complete. The development of the vetted was cyclone collectors that were and contracted by the Department of Homeland Security. After the theatrics, envelopes were disseminated or distributed and so be spent five years developing this. That it was Seiken collectors. That today it's called viable buyer. So collectors or V Bax and the patent was licensed by north of Grandma. And so we have had we have been having a long term collaboration with North of Common with three Pearson cattle grey on the different applications and development of stages of this this hire William collector that we would like to use currently in the cove it 19 pandemics toe help people would have decreased the spread of the disease and help people in fighting the infection.

spk_0:   4:33
As for when we could just kind of go right into that topic, which is you know, how how are you seeing in your experience and the research that you've done? And, uh, how are you seeing this as being different from other viruses or sicknesses?

spk_1:   4:49
So as he started to work is the better for cyclone? In the initial stages, we were focusing on bacterial collections, and also we did for different reasons, for every sense, interesting or so viral collections, different areas. For example, working Mr Ohio State University is doctor and the old man own collecting. Signing friends of I rose at Ohio State first using the people's icon, collector or viable buyer So collector in the time when the evil ass Strat was increasing. And this will be needed to know if our collect Aries is capable of collecting a virals in case an epidemic or a pandemics occur. And so, after I came over to my current Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering Busan if equity position over three years ago, I started to focus on or not only collecting by their source but also own on tracking their movement. So I am I am combining two very powerful technologies. Money's the viable buyer, so collection the larger war You f isn't collection off by bero source bacteria, fungi and no irises and also using computational fluid dynamics modeling to track their movement in the air and combining these two technologies Arrows us toe really monitor the spread off infectious agents. Not only two different food processing facilities, very be, have quite a bit off experience with the the mechanical ventilation systems and the spread off the infectious bacteria. But also he's currently through the vital collections, or so these ambient air and also spreading at hospital or has care facilities.

spk_0:   6:57
So if I understand this correctly, you have a device or what you're calling a collector that can actually sample the air and and tell you whether or not covert 19 is in the environment, Is that correct?

spk_1:   7:11
Yes, yes. So we have a higher volume collector that that has a for certain sizes over hundreds of 100% efficiency. Toe toe efficiently Collect particles from the air at 100 liter from any toe 1002 150 liters per minute, airflow and concentrate them over 10 million times into recreated. So this collector is poor people. Lightweight, very sturdy, so it can be placed anywhere. And it can collect autonomously for for extended period of time. So for days or weeks, different particles. So, actually, everything that's in the air will be collected by this vetiver cycle.

spk_0:   7:58
That is amazing. Now, the fact that you you have a device like this that is available, what kind of implementation are you looking at? Possibly you know, taking one and just putting it in the middle of an icy you, or even a grocery store, for that matter. Is is that the state? The sort of thing you're thinking about?

spk_1:   8:20
Yes. So, basically, we would like to have two applications for the wretched world cycle. More viable buyer Soul collector One would be to use it to collect exhaled air and calling the viruses that are in the long off off an infected person. So this would be a less invasive sampling than the current saliva. Or although swap samples. And it would also provide a very concentrated and clean sample photos area, enabling the early detection off, the off the infection before the symptoms are appearing and and at the same time the person is order the infectious. So this kind off sampler that would include a disposable three D printed part that would be indeed a contact with the patients infectious agents, if any. This this is one off the applications that we would liketo see. We have experience collecting. Exhale. There is this viable buyer so correct or be used it toe. Detect what kind of bacterial microbiome is in a in a person's long in a person's long, and it showed us that the microbiome disc organizing the Long is very personalized in a way, and it can have bacteria that that you have certain diseases. For example, dia betters that a person can have So basically the developing off a person determines the microbiome after off the long.

spk_0:   9:56
So is there a plan to cause it Sounds like, you know, those are the major issue right now is testing right? So Ah, would this speak? Giving instant results or does there Ah, time for analysis. Once the samples taken from the patient,

spk_1:   10:14
where was the samples are corrected. And we have this few You like a couple off hunting practically 102 100 micro theaters off liquids. A very concentrated sample that we could collect from the exhaled air. That would be ready for a fast and analysis using one of the bio identify your kids or or test messages that are being approved by FDA for the detection off the corner of idols.

spk_0:   10:43
Okay, so And what are you seeing as faras implementation like, Are you looking at getting this mass produced and sent out to the hospitals, or are you still in a very early phase?

spk_1:   10:57
Well, I think we buffets probably a couple of months of developmental work toe combat the current version off the re back in tow and disposable unit toe or partially disposable. You need to collect the exhaled air and you would like toe the worker bees government agencies toe to reach this final development or state is no so chroma.

spk_0:   11:27
So, uh, if if we could go over maybe a little bit of the generalities of this Corona virus and just get your opinion on, you know, some of the common questions that might be out there like on I asked this pretty much the same question to the infectious disease vision physician. But is a person in danger of of contracting the disease. If they're standing in line at the grocery store and the person in front of them is is infected, let's say And they're just breathing now the person behind them, even though they're social distancing if they walk through that theoretical cloud of ex elation, are they possibly in danger of catching this disease or doesn't require someone to actually cough or, you know, actually see some sort of droplet transmission?

spk_1:   12:21
I think it the person would be in danger, and it shows that just by exhaling, so there are some some new studies on it. I believe that just by exhaling, this virus can spread and it's not only coughing or sneezing or ex healing. But the air movement at the grocery store or any any beauty where where we have ventilation system or generally, we just have the worst. And windows will believe to the fact that that these, despite all particles, are transported around it was the didn't using another powerful technique. Particle tracking Bala Sematary Video analysis off off sneeze particles and be cedar that they are not only large, troubling sizes that are part of this. This composition of this, this drop, the distribution that's that's a person with producing a sneeze. But there are also nano sized particles, so it's very likely that that dry particles so dry viruses are also being sneezed by the person and and those noodles their size, you stay suspended in the air for extended periods of time, and they can be untrained in the air flow and being carried around. And all the research shows that large, very large droplets, which are over a millimeter that's being produced in a sneeze. Yes, those can deposit very fast on surfaces, but the nano sized regime bill really be ableto refuse in the air and stay suspended on basically, if he loved the air at their at their in a room or at the facility. And if you think of it, at least like my grocery store has, the checkout area of the cashiers are right by the exit door. So there is this constant traffic door opens, closes. Ah, that is this powerful eight track because they want to provide a significant cooling, especially here in Texas, in the store. So all these new will enable the virus to basically get everywhere in the in the whole larger year.

spk_0:   14:30
So just that that ventilation is helping spread or theoretically spread any virus that might be in that grocery store?

spk_1:   14:40
Yes, so just there. So so our computational fluid dynamics modeling shows that these ventilation systems that we have generally and they are agreed to help for for being ableto you're in court summer days and so on. At the same time, they are also agreed transport for or the particles, bacteria, fungi and viruses so they can carry them everywhere. And these mechanical layouts off off the ventilation systems are never really designed with this in mind, because air looks clean. And then they saying that if you have airflow, ventilation air for that. Then you provide clean air because at some point that our future's in the system and then so so basically, this is, ah, kind of like and new aspect off it, or a new lucrative. And then if you think of the cruise ships, how the Corona virus was basically spread all over the Krusee or those high rises in, I think in Hong Kong or soul that from the tents for the Corona virus reached the second for so we can see that this is a airflow is out with transport off off even these particles and being so tiny nano sized. So that means that they linger really long in the air, so it will take days for them tow deposit on surfaces. From there, they can be re suspended again. So I think that's why I went up. The the reasons that they say that the high humidity off hair you have combat the virus is because the humidity bill provider courting and will be a larger problem that the sediment faster and then believe the air floor or believed the the suspended state in the air.

spk_0:   16:34
So how long, on average, does it stay in the air? Or is that just based on the ventilation of whatever the environment it's in?

spk_1:   16:43
You know, that's a very good point. Yes, that's so so basically, we have a creations that we can calculate how long a certain size of particle will stay suspended in the air. But of course there is always a pro. So we become too just therapies with only the gravitational effect. And so bacteria can seize to spend it for hours, which are micrometer sizes. So 123 toe Formica meters, but no no sized particles. And we tested the nano sized part because the concentration in the air and how long they stay in the in the air at Nano Particle Manute manufacturing facilities and it wa ce so we could we could show that that it was staying. So the nanoparticles air saying, suspended in the air for days. So they defuse this stay suspended and then they linger around. And of course, they get untrained in the air force. So depending but kind off fo system there is. And if you think about it that the hospital has a six changes through our minimum mandated, so that's quite a bit of powerful airflow to carry it every better. And there are no filters with me rooms or or between hallways and so on toe basically future viruses out, which is not an easy, not an easy technologies er so thio. Consequently, this this actually leads to the other application off the bet it was Cyclone by your soul collector sees that toe have them in in larger spaces because they are able to collect room size and Williams and basically is in a couple of hours, these collectors would be ableto sample the whole little and the whole. So basically the air will. You marked an entire room and then then can detect this person's a virus. Is he funny? And I saw articles about testing the air in from Sai Spaces, and that's the collectors were very small Afro made for very smaller Foley's that they call drink Allex. So it was hard for this collector or sampling at, like 15 liters per minute to sample a hole room space or or room air space that would result in a statistically significant number of particles and so consequently, even if this thought is found, viruses at the ventilation, and he lets or or ventilation access the frames. They couldn't detect them in the air. At the same time, there is indication that the particles meant as far as the the air outlets, and they must have been airborne.

spk_0:   19:37
That is fascinating, because all we keep hearing about in the media is how the virus is living on surfaces and different types of surfaces, whether it's hard metal, hard service, metal, paper, cardboard. But there's very little discussion about how this virus can live in the air, and it's almost shocking to hear that it can live in the air for days were be floating in the air for days. Now is there any data? So let's say the particle is floating in air for days. Is that virus still alive for those many days? As far as you

spk_1:   20:15
know, that's that's what we would need to cast. So So basically it can be entrained, and it can stay diffused in there, but we have to be able to test it. So being being nano sized, so this is a high probability misery stays viable. So there are indications that vitals to stay viable, suspended in the air for four hours yesterday, staying viable for days that that hasn't really been tested. Eser. So using our correct as we would be able to test it and people be ableto find out a lot more about the behavior of the virus. It's yes, it stays on the on the surface season and stays in fractures on surfaces for for certain periods of time. But the environmental effects, so like air for the humidity, the temperature and then the time that I stay in the air. So these only Toby 1st 3rd alienated. Because they we have some data. We have some assumptions, but it hasn't really be invested. And that's what we would like to do. Bizarre, viable buyer. So collector, which would be ableto test it there arises present and how long they are viable. Because the collection maintains the viability.

spk_0:   21:33
Well, it sounds like we have to get your collectors in every single room of every single hospital of every single building tomorrow. Uh

spk_1:   21:41
huh. Is

spk_0:   21:42
that right? Now? Maybe just if you could kind of, uh, discuss the difference between the concept of droplet and aerosol because this particular virus lives in aerosol form, is that correct?

spk_1:   22:00
Yeah, it well, it it it maintains the viability never also form. Yes, So it I mean, it's it needs a horse toe, basically toe propagate. But it meant Mr Viability for a vial in the India and on surfaces.

spk_0:   22:17
But that's and that's one way of transmission is the fact that it can. It can be viable in aerosol form as opposed and then also droplet form depending on how it exited. Ah, host Correct?

spk_1:   22:31
Yes. And then. So that's why environmental factors like air properties or or like airflow the velocity, the humidity, the temperature with all the affect, or for you.

spk_0:   22:41
And how would you define the difference between a Russell and Droplet?

spk_1:   22:45
Well, every source are basically liquid or solid particles suspended in air. So So consequently, droplets are so droplets can be aerosolized. So many other source are in the former off some kind of liquid only it called the droplets

spk_0:   23:05
okay, and you discussed a little bit already about, you know, airflow and ah, and and different systems, whether it be in a building. Or, you know, we could even talk about the concept of airflow in an airplane and then eventually going through some sort of filtration, Uh, our general ventilation system filtration adequate to filter out this virus like, for example, is a HEPA filter adequate to filter out this virus in a ventilation system?

spk_1:   23:37
Well, that's a good question. So So probably there are filters. There are high quality futures that are able to but given the fact, even if they have very powerful futures and even if it's not even nano sized but but bacteria. Still, we see that that if there is a source, it takes of I, Toby filtered out from the air. So even if eventually the virus reaches that future, it has quite a bit off off air time in the room or in the facility before it reaches it so it might take a vial, and in the meantime, it can infect people. Would

spk_0:   24:17
you like to comment at all on the whole concept of wearing masks? Because I know there are the new guidelines that came out from the CDC. They're basically trying to get everyone to wear one now, but ah, I I'm always trying to get on a soapbox to tryto describe to people like, you know, like my neighbors who are not in health care. Two. Try to get them to understand wearing a regular surgical mask. Let's say at the grocery store is not protecting you from contracting the virus. It's protecting others from you, just in case you have it and you're asymptomatic. And if everyone does that, then many people will be protected, and it will slow the spread as opposed to wearing an N 95 mask. If you wear properly, it should protect you. If you walked into an environment where the virus exists,

spk_1:   25:14
well, that's, Ah, very good question. And there aren't a lot of data toe, really. So what's happening because it's so personal house. Somebody's wearing a mask and and you are I. So the very simple mask are really not fitting very well on on her face. So there is quite a bit of gap and and the very well fitted mask that I, for example, have professional here in the air. So technology laboratory that the that really covers up and then uses futures toe, remove everything that comes in with the air, but at the same time, that would be very hard to wear for a longer period, of time and also divides can enters through the eye, for example. So so it doesn't give a protection for that. I started to see people even hearing in our town who were a complete face mask. And also the eyes are covered. And then they have the future. So it's like a military level, the mosque and probably that's that's, Ah, huge protection. I am not sore so but this this kind off off not so perfectly fitting masks. I sing they maybe they they provide protection against some size of particles. But but I don't see that they are hungry person protecting. Especially not if the eyes are not covered and the nose is not covered and so on.

spk_0:   26:41
I know I've seen a lot of this footage from the news and the documentaries seeing the health care providers in these units at the hospitals where they do have the N 95 masks, and then they have a surgical mask over that to preserve their in 95 to use it multiple times, which is something else. Possibly you could comment on the fact that you're using these and 95 which were supposed to be disposable and because of the shortage, they're being asked to use them again. But then also, you're seeing them with just these face shields instead of goggles to truly seal out the the eyes S o. I think this is why we may be seeing a lot more health care providers contracting the virus.

spk_1:   27:24
You're probably because it's an enemy. And I heard it, too, that those Haskell providers who were a very fitted mask than they end up a skin problems and someone. So it's It's very hard to bear a perfect mask. And if if I remember, well and I may not be correct. But when we had the Ebola virus and and he treats the nurse in India and are in a dollars hospital, it was enough to have a tiny cracker opening on her scraps somewhere where the evil Aventine and basically infected her. So it it it was just I don't even remember how how small or how big that get us over or resident was. It was something at the neck area that wasn't seeing so perfectly so as they defuse. I mean, they can they can find a way, and the so I I I think burying those mask it's It's certainly and, ah, some kind of protection. But I I I wouldn't I wouldn't go into a ah ah, a place with a high concentration of the smiles and then trust that that mask only.

spk_0:   28:34
Yeah, that's a shame, because it is. It's kind of one of those things where that's that's what they have. Because I understand, you know, from from speaking to some other people that obviously everybody should be wearing one of the positive pressure, the paper masks and suits, but those are few and far between, but ah, so if they really have to think mostly about proper fit. But then, when you talk about reusing what was supposed to be disposable, then you're probably talking about a decrease in efficiency of that. Suppose it filter.

spk_1:   29:09
It is, it is. And then if if if you have a very, very well fitting mask, I mean, I would say most people would feel it limited, and they can really, Barry, the time will be limited because it's really hard, harder to breathe. It's it's kind of it's a strain on the on the on the body to bear a very perfect mask.

spk_0:   29:29
How long would you think Just ballpark? How long do you think this is gonna last? A sw far as when when we reach a peak and then come out the other side of this.

spk_1:   29:41
Oh, I wish I could tell. I am hoping that that we are We are reaching the peak soon and and getting outof so. So. If you look historical yet at this kind of proof and that makes sense alone is hard to tell because, for example, is the Spanish flu There was a secondary infection, The crap cielo. So the bacterial pneumonia infection that that dragged it out even longer. But I am hoping that with the hot weather and then Mr Higher humidity, especially here in the Southern states, it well, it will decrease. And so the number of cases will go down. And we have been hearing in the news that that there are less cases are less casualties like in China now in military, and then so in other countries, maybe two. So hopefully it's it's speaking and it's going toe toe go out. And I heard, or so that even if me, if we are seeing a huge decrease in the spread during the summer and there are fears that it might come back in the fall like the Spanish who came back in the four. But hopefully this this would be the case. I think we have so many measures and regulations in place that you should really stop the spread.

spk_0:   30:59
You know, they talk a lot about the new normal when this is all finished. Ah ah, How do you think things might change because of what we're going through right now in any aspect.

spk_1:   31:13
But I I hope it brings the people closer and brings brings us all more mindful of things that can happen because this can happen again and it can come back. We had the the Sasquatch bon and then no, we have to start stuff, too, and we can have any any virus coming back again. So I hope it will be better prepared or DVD will be very prepared next time. Hopefully, it never happens, but But I think it it kind off raises the awareness that that we have to be prepared and also I think it's bringing people closer families closer and that's wonderful. I think that's a very positive part off it and also for us to be prepared. Nor I grew up in a post for country. So my parents spent a year in the cellars and and there was no food and and no supplies. But so consequently my mom always said a huge supply of everything at home, so she was always prepared. And I grew up with this sense that you always have to be prepared for everything in time. But still, it's It's very hard, Toto, you know, toe store Hugh supplies and then then be ready for for extended periods of time is everything. But I think this this is another another awareness that we have. And this is also very good toe toa kind of have this mentality that we have to be ready and we have to be ableto make it through a heart period like this.

spk_0:   32:50
Yes, I mean, there there could be many lessons learned from this experience because it is so unique and so surreal. And hopefully Ah, there are some silver linings and some lessons learned that can be carried over to the other end of this when it's all finished. Ah, well, Dr King I really appreciate your time. Do you have any other points or anything that I did not bring up with you That you would like to? Ah, that you would like to get out there or mention

spk_1:   33:17
Thank you. I just would like to thank you again for giving me this opportunity too tall and also that I am hoping that that immediately ableto health with over our technologies. I have stopped the spread of the disease and and help the people busy. And also, I would like to read. I admire the resilience of the off my a country and answer basically the American people. How everybody's is hoping It's the Carrie, and cheerfully everybody's is facing the hardships that we have. And then how fast we can sweets toe basically making like classes happen, making semesters complete, have everybody. So So we are. I think they are very resilient. So it's it's It's a great, great thing to know.

spk_0:   34:14
Okay, well, thank you again very much for your time, Dr King. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. So that'll do it for this episode. I hope to see you with the next one. This is Matthew's ender and the going viral podcast. Please stay safe and stay well